Talk:Shotacon

Jumping in and moving over this discussion


 * Shota can also refer to the type of young boys those with a shotacon are attracted to. In others, he is paired with a female, which the general community would call straight shota or a male which would be more yaoi or "boys' love" type.'

The last phrase repeats the first part of the excerpt, so seems oddly placed or worded.

The connection between "shotagon" and "yaoi" seems more complicated than them being equivalent or partially equivalent (Wikipedia yaoi article and Wikipedia shotagon article).

Perhaps the solution is to split off the disputed part-sentence and write in a more nuanced paragraph of origins? Including the point that equating adult gay relationships with child abuse is a common way of attempting to gain acceptance for child abusers (Wikipedia NABLA article) or demonizing gay people (wikipedia homophobia article - see image caption).

(Yes, I know Wikipedia is sometimes an unreliable source, but it's generally good at laying out controversial subjects).

This seems to be a solution that would be both informative to the reader and an accurate depiction of the link between the two genres.

Note: this is not an official Fandom ruling, just comments on the dispute.-- Sannse (help forum | blog) 17:52, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

That is an idea, for the first part replacing this paragraph:


 * Shota can also refer to the type of young boys those with a shotacon are attracted to. In others, he is paired with a female, which the general community would call straight shota or a male which would be more yaoi or "boys' love" type.'

With the text:


 * Shota can also refer to the type of young boys those with a shotacon are attracted to. Shotacon of both genders can be paired with male or female shota.

Is much more concise, and simply covers the facts succinctly.


 * Including the point that equating adult gay relationships with child abuse is a common way of attempting to gain acceptance for child abusers (Wikipedia NABLA article) or demonizing gay people (wikipedia homophobia article - see image caption).

That could also be a plan since it explains why bad faith practices in the past would include the words together, essentially to demean adult gay relationships. The International Lesbian and Gay Association rejected groups like NAMBLA who tried to attach themselves to their movements. Yaoi can also disavow shotacon should it attempted to be attached to what it deals with.

Ultimately, moving into the future and leaving harmful practices behind established by others behind, readers viewing the shotacon page should not be seeing references to yaoi or boys love (again “boys love” is a genre largely formed by women and is a figure of speech akin to “having a boyfriend” it is not literally a boy) they will not find underage child content in such spaces. Likewise readers of yaoi will not have to come across underage content by bad faith actors looking to add it for the purposes of diminishing the yaoi genre. --S3r0-Ph1i (talk) 19:02, 9 November 2022 (UTC)


 * I don't have more time to look into this at the moment, I spent too much time looking up definitions yesterday basically to find that the terms and definitions are made up and not consistent. I will look at it more later, and it may be that these sub-categories may need a separate article. Also, I see no value in adding in non anime/mange relate items like NAMBLA. Sxerks (talk) 02:35, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

"Also, I see no value in adding in non anime/mange relate items like NAMBLA."

That’s fair and makes sense, the idea was for comparisons purposes. If pedophile based groups attempt to attach themselves to mainstream and acceptable LGBTQIA+ groups they must be seen to fail, the same applies for shotacon trying to be tied in with yaoi.

Dated and perhaps not the best of faith edits slipped in on Wikipedia do (inaccurately) state shotacon originates as an offshoot from yaoi, but more like it was taped on. On the shotacon article: “the genre is rumored to have roots” rumoured highlights the misinformation. What is all really is: “shotacon is not an offshoot of yaoi, but we’ll say it is anyway so readers gain the homophobic impression that they are linked.”

Indeed terms are not currently consistent, but moving forward just as LGBTQIA+ resources are made more accurate and guide the consistency, yaoi should follow that. The LGBTQIA+ Wiki features nothing like “pedophilia is not linked to these groups” neither does the LGBTQIA+ Resources page it is taken for granted that there are no links. Likewise for yaoi and shotacon it shouldn’t even need to be clarified, it should be assumed they are unconnected. Readers of shotacon will not find what they like in yaoi anyway since by definition they are interested in undeveloped boys in sexual based situations, yaoi covers biologically matured people, it's a firm cut-off line. Updated and much more accurate consistency is the path forward. As LGBTQIA+ resources do not include pedophile based words at all, not having the words on the shotacon page, which the suggested: Shota can also refer to the type of young boys those with a shotacon are attracted to. Shotacon of both genders can be paired with male or female shota. Text achieves, again says everything needed and readers rightly won’t see it conflated with yaoi which is the best case outcome moving forward. --S3r0-Ph1i (talk) 08:41, 10 November 2022 (UTC)


 * The more I read the arguments for removing the link between shotacon and yaoi the more it makes sense. I would like to remove the relevant sentence as anti-LGBT+. I'm away from today until Dec 17 so will leave this here for any further comments before editing -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 15:37, 17 November 2022 (UTC)


 * As the points here and the follow-up messages here cover, indeed it’s largely about the marring of an entire genre, and demonising people, and so yes steps should be taken to remedy that.


 * An additional reason here for the removal is for the safety of users online. If someone in the real world is reading yaoi series, someone else should not be thinking they are accessing underage shotacon since they wouldn’t be, but might think that due to misinformation. Likewise if readers of shotacon gain the impression they can find it in yaoi as the current article text outright says, so go onto yaoi sites and ask where the shotacon is… readers need to be kept safe from harm. -- S3r0-Ph1i (talk) 17:40, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

I've made the change (I was back sooner than I thought, and this conversation has been in place for quite a while) -- Sannse (help forum | blog) 16:13, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

A best case outcome. The wikis are all the better with this problem area rectified. The “it’s two males therefore it’s yaoi” arose from ignorance, from indolent approaches to classification that were formed elsewhere in the past. There was an eagerness to connect the dots, but not in the right order, rather to create a biased and warped image. In casting yaoi in with shotacon, to bestiality series with animal relations, the damage was done to the perception of yaoi.

Just to summarize, where equality movements began, pro-pedophilia groups did not grow out of them, they tried to attach their movements, and were rightly rejected. Similarly with yaoi series being released, shotacon didn’t grow out of them... They tried to sneak into yaoi classifications to try and have pedophilia viewed as acceptable. Classification sites didn’t help with lumping all same-sex male content together. The few behind these actions didn’t care for it, it was all the “homosexual” content to them with all the negative connotations they had placed on it. It has taken time for yaoi to fend off the shotacon, beastiality, whatever it is, that was placed with it.

For anywhere it won’t do for shotacon to be mentioned in the same place as yaoi so readers gain the false idea they are linked. These are firmly distinct areas. Where it can be insisted that shotacon/pedophilia is linked to yaoi/homosexuality, that the misplaced and inimical efforts falter is all that matters. The harmful attempt to effectively state “this is two guys therefore this man preying on a child is yaoi” has been corrected, and the articles are accurate. Again, a best case outcome, all complete. --S3r0-Ph1i (talk) 01:41, 6 December 2022 (UTC)